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    Team SEWA :: View topic - Am I a jerk?
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    Am I a jerk?
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    Gordon_Dixon
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    Joined: May 25, 2006
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    PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:15 pm    Post subject: Am I a jerk? Reply with quote

    I have ran into this now enough times that I have to throw myself out to the mercy of the sewa community.

    Is it or is it not proper for me to give recommendations to other darters win or lose about how they shot in certain situations?

    For example, I was beaten twice this weekend by the same guy who chased me twice on the 20s and took hero shots that were pointless do or die shots that I just didn't captialize on. Later other darters would take advantage of these mistakes and he would lose...throwing well...just not smart. Both times when I approached him about this I felt like I was being looked at like a jerk off not the helpful hand I was trying to be. Sure I was upset about the loss but not at him. If he beat me he beat me, I've lost before and I most likely lose again. I don't have that chip on my shoulder that I shouldn't lose or shouldn't lose to certain people. Its just not there.

    Another time this weekend I did the same after I actually won the match due to a mistake a guy made in 01 and again this guy looked at me like I was rubbing in the fact that I won, which was not my intention.

    I will never forget Steve Brown telling me that I should have switched shooting to 18's shooting from 165 after hitting 4 20s with my first two darts. The straight ton didn't leave me an out. I think it was the bloodshot in like 2003...it has stayed with me.

    In my quest to be a darter like this and influence smart darts not just good ones I think I have gone astray. Or maybe I give myself too much credit pressuming that everyone thinks that I am worthy of giving advice...maybe that is it. I don't know but I don't like that feeling of looking or feeling like a jerk when my intentions are the complete opposite. Seeing good players hit more triples than me and lose cricket is frustrating TO ME...maybe I am soap boxing but I think it gets at the root of why we cant get this sport to take off. The players that play now don't understand the game...why should anyone else.

    Wow smack me if I need it after all that Wink
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    rob
    Chief Gunner
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    PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    i try to help everyone out with strategy when i can too... and i have noticed is that some people take and others dont. cant let it bug ya or stop ya from trying to promote the game proper.

    as for being a jerk... since i dont know you too well here is an easy test for ya... if you remember who i am from when we played then you are ok by me. Wink Wink Wink Wink
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    Davin
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    Joined: Feb 18, 2009
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    PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I just try to help the common bar darter from time to time. It feels good to help someone out. Some take the advice and I will see them later and have put it to use. Finger drive, elbow up, grip, etc... And they will sometimes thank me, because they have actually gotten better. To me that's cool. I try to help with out shots from time to time also. But that's a bit stickier. There are tons of options. I don't always do the "right" thing myself...
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    HeRoDaRtS
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    PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    my first piece of advice is to log on to this site...its helped me so much ,so i always recommend this to people when we are talking darts. and for all other help even against opponents i am all for it... it makes for better darts...

    lol i know i am a jerk, so i never have that awkward feeling when people think i am a jerk so that dosent bother me...
    what bothers me is when a newer player on your team asks for help,,,so u input your 2 cents and they do the complete opposite ...and when the same situation comes around again ask for your advice again...then do what they want again.
    _________________
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    LaujThoj
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    PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I applaud guys like you GD. Don't let the ones refusing to learn ruin it for those willing. Keep it up.
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    BlackHorse
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    PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Gordon, if you have good intentions and a desire to help, and your tone and approach reflect that, you are doing great. It is up to the recipient then to accept your words of wisdom graciously. If they don't, it's their loss.

    Any conversation between two people plays by the same rules.

    If your opponent has an ear to hear, and an open mind, the worst that could happen is that he debates it a bit with you and still isn't convinced. Who knows, they may come back with a good reason you hadn't thought of, or something personal to them that makes them shoot how they did. Or you might have taught them but it might not sink in til later.

    I shoot occasionally with a terrific player who is my superior on the board, no question. But he will shoot at closed numbers. Telling him this isn't the best strategy makes him angry at me, especially if he has won anyway. Oh well...... I tried. And he will come up against players who outshoot him, and then he will have wished he had learned some strategy. Wink
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    Taechon
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    PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I have a long standing policy: I never give advice unless I am asked. I just don't do it. I never want to be that guy that runs around the bar telling everyone else what they should not be doing. I don't even intervene when I know that the advice is dead wrong.

    The information is out there for the people that want it. All you have to do is ask, search for it. How does the ole expression go... "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. You can lead a person to knowledge but you can't make them think." or "A mind convinced against its will is of the same opinion still."

    You know, I don't even believe in giving myself advice during a game. I don't second guess shots or worry about misses. Game time just isn't the time to worry about that sort of stuff in my mind.
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    Darts is a simple game. It is the human mind that is complex. When the mind becomes as simple as the game, you have harmony.

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    habanerojooz
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    PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Gordon_Dixon wrote:
    Wow smack me if I need it after all that.

    SMACK!!! Razz

    If they thought you were a jerk, then you were a jerk....in their eyes.

    It doesn't matter who you are, how good you are, what your intentions are, etc. Unsolicited advice is usually not welcomed.

    Just let it go and move on. Continue to promote the game in your own way. Some people will like it, and others will not. No big deal.
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    digger331
    Assistant Commandant Editor in Chief
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    Joined: Nov 06, 2005
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    PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I agree with Tae.

    It's a rule of thumb in the counseling profession to only give advice when it is requested. To give unsolicited suggestions with the best of intent will nonetheless fall on deaf ears, even if the counsel you give others will improve their situation.

    And no, that doesn't make you a jerk. It's the same as when parents give their kids advice. Although the ears are open, the mind is closed.
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    DEREK
    SEWA Moderator (S-3)
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    Joined: May 21, 2007
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    PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I look at it this way...if the guy won, the last thing he wants to hear is that he shot poor choices of darts. Even though he may have shot the wrong dart at times, he won. This is what he is thinking. He now has the guy he beat telling him he was wrong for shooting something that lead to his win. Kind of like raining on his parade a bit. And the same goes for the guy you just beat. The last thing someone wants to hear when they lose is "why" they lost from the guy that just beat him.
    Even if the darts are wrong that someone throws against me...if they win, they hit the darts they threw...
    I rarely give any advice unless asked for this reason. I don't want to be that guy. Lets face it Gordon, alot of people know your name. When they beat you, they don't want to hear how they made a mistake in doing so...it is kind of like tellng someone they got lucky...maybe they did, but that is the last thing they want to hear. I would suggest either get used to feeling like a jerk, or just keep quiet until someone asks you for advice.
    Now, if it is on a warm up board and your playing someone for fun to get loose, then help away...but I would refrain from giving the unsolicited advice after a "live" game in a tourney or leagues.
    Just my 2 cents from being on both sides of the coin.
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    BlackHorse
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    PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I understand the naysayers, but I have to put in that the people who get riled over some soft spoken words of encouragement and teaching are too thin-skinned and need to grow up a tad. Aren't we often berating those kinds of people here on SEWA, when they get upset at someone disagreeing with their opinion?

    Gordon does have a name, right? He is a top shooter, right? If I am playing such a player, I am happy to have them talk to me, give me some pointers, show an interest in my game, hell that's cool!

    In any conversation, the listener can choose to take words one way or the other. If they choose to take them offensively, then they are the jerk. If they sulk after a loss, or can't withstand some criticism after a big win, or take the opportunity to talk and make a new friend, imo they are the jerk. Or, at the very least, immature.
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    Though others helped, I can safely say, my darting life is SEWA bred.

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    DEREK
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    PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Not everyone thinks the same BH....thats why he is seeing people looking at him like he is a jerk. I am just giving him some examples that i have seen. I have been on a board next to a match involving a top name in US darts...watched him lose a tight game to a little known player. Now after the match is over ,the man that lost offered some advice to the winner for the next round (something about the hero dart) Well when the man left the winner and his pals that were there to celebrate his win, all started to rip the guy for his advice...thats where i got the "you got lucky" line.
    Most people that are striving to get better will openly listen to a seasoned and accomplished player...but lets face it the vast majority of the players at most tournaments are not top shooters but local people that are there for fun and they really could care less who is who and what they say. my advice to Gordon was to just keep quiet unless he has a relationship with the player already or is asked for his thoughts. i am not saying that people are right to treat him badly if he offers unsolicited advice....but to be prepared if those he offers it to, are less than cordial in response to it.
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    GeorgeSilberzah
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    PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Cool Here's one piece of advice to which I'v always gotten a nasty response:


    You should play one more time then just give it up - quit.
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    rob
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    PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    GeorgeSilberzah wrote:
    Cool Here's one piece of advice to which I'v always gotten a nasty response:


    You should play one more time then just give it up - quit.


    haha
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    YoungDrtr
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    PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Hey Gordon. First of all, I think you were doing the right thing there, although, it's not a decision I would have made. If it's league night, a tourney, or anything along those lines I would have avoided giving the other guy/gal advice. Screw 'em. If they come up to you and they are talking about the match then maybe I would start saying "I noticed you shot at *this* when I would have thought the best shot was *that*" Etc. etc. Anyway, your intentions were good but don't be so concerned about them. Let them shoot what they wanna and keep whippin' them unless they come to you and seem worth it to talk to.
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    Gordon_Dixon
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    PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I greatly appreciate the honest feed back guys. In a tournament setting it is tough to find a time that is correct to have any discussion like this. Any way you approach the person could be looked at positively or negatively. Even if I wait till the event is over it could be taken as a "see I told you so."

    Maybe when this was done for me back in the day, I didn't feel like I should have even been in the game so the advice was better received. This guy knew he had a shot to beat me so the advice felt more backhanded.

    I will say, I am in shock at the amount of people that have such great talent but don't seem to care at all if they give themselves the best oppurtunity to win legs.



    Oh and thanks for the SMACK Smile
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    Davin
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    PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    next time you come to music city, I will greatly appreciate your advice after I beat you! :-p
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    djsayre
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    PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    YOUR A JERK...end of story...lol
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    Dart_talker
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    PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Giving advice is like throwing a dart; you give it your best effort, and sometimes it just does not produce the desired results.

    Don't give up, because there are folks out there that are open to feedback.
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    overlord
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    PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    BlackHorse wrote:
    I understand the naysayers, but I have to put in that the people who get riled over some soft spoken words of encouragement and teaching are too thin-skinned and need to grow up a tad. Aren't we often berating those kinds of people here on SEWA, when they get upset at someone disagreeing with their opinion?

    Gordon does have a name, right? He is a top shooter, right? If I am playing such a player, I am happy to have them talk to me, give me some pointers, show an interest in my game, hell that's cool!

    In any conversation, the listener can choose to take words one way or the other. If they choose to take them offensively, then they are the jerk. If they sulk after a loss, or can't withstand some criticism after a big win, or take the opportunity to talk and make a new friend, imo they are the jerk. Or, at the very least, immature.



    Side question on the second paragraph. If a person doesn't have a name or not a top shooter does this mean your not happy to talk to them?

    I only ask because I'm in a league where we "draft" our players to create more equal teams.
    Anyway the person I drafted in the 4th round is very intelligent and she talks "Thermonuclear Cricket Strategy" even though she is lucky to average 1MPR. My 2nd & 3rd Rounders won't listen to her at all for they think - better skill = better strategy.

    Frustrating....
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    BlackHorse
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    PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Nope, Overlord, nothing to do with it, but good question.

    Just because a person can't shoot fantastically doesn't mean they don't know the correct strategy - they are bettering their game in the ways they can.

    Coaches in pro sports can't do squat on the playing field, but they can win or lose games by their strategy, and they usually know it better than the most gifted athlete.

    An person's argument should be weighed and thought through before dismissing it. I am sure you know many games have been lost by superior shooters because they shot at less-effective targets.
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    CraigB
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    PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    overlord wrote:
    I'm in a league where we "draft" our players to create more equal teams.


    Off-topic (hey, what else would you expect from me? Razz ), but I've always thought that drafting teams would be a fun experiment. Of course I also know it would have zero chance up here because too many people only want to play with their friends or out of their favorite bar (can't say that I blame them). Maybe this could be a fun secondary league night? Hmm... Wink
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    rob
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    PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    draft? did somebody say draft?

    dont tell that to the MMDL section... Rolling Eyes
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    CraigB
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    PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    rob wrote:
    draft? did somebody say draft?

    dont tell that to the MMDL section... Rolling Eyes


    No worries, they'll just assume we're talking about beer! Laughing
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    Gordon_Dixon
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    PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    djsayre wrote:
    YOUR A JERK...end of story


    I don't know if you guys know DJ but he is my friend. Thanks to my friend DJ
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